The conversation this note introduces is artificial, and was designed by me to draw out dialogue on a topic I wanted to learn more about: what is the value of, what are the difficulties that accompany, and how might one conceptualize access to open data? For all I know, any commitment the speakers have to their respective positions is only backed by the speakers themselves insofar as they were willing to intone the words. And since open data is by nature “open” to users without relevant experience, I wondered whether it would be possible to leverage a position of ignorance.
In the document that follows, Ryan and Dmitriy have some ideas. In an earlier version of this project, I left this conversation almost entirely unedited and uninterpreted, without comment. As a compromise following a late consultation about the conversation, I provide a synopsis of what I take to be the speakers’ main positions. Perhaps this puts a finger on the scales in favor of Ryan’s position: that mere access to this conversation as memorialized by my laptop’s voice-to-text function does not, in itself, really provide much.
If you wish to read this without any further suggestions (have access sans curation), please proceed to the note on formatting, otherwise here is a brief take on the speakers’ positions:
Ryan seems to advocate for the position that mere access [the ability to look at, call up, download free of charge some data] is no access at all, and that one role of “the expert” —a role that vitiates against an inclination of experts towards anti-democratic, elitist curation of information—is to suggest potential vistas, briar patches, and areas where, for all we know, there be dragons of the informational landscape.
Dmitriy is a skeptic. He is unimpressed by Ryan’s argument; he sees the position that Ryan advocates for as overly idealistic— that specialization and expertise exist for a reason, and that access is the first step. While nothing that Ryan suggests is bad in a practical sense, there are, in his view, many other steps that need to be taken to improve public access and understanding of data. In his perspective, Ryan is shooting for the castle in the clouds, without building any foundation.
A note on formatting: The text below is the mostly-unedited text as recognized by Microsoft Word’s voice-to-text function. Ellipses in brackets represent redacted sections. Emojis replace some proper nouns (e.g., 🏫 is used in place of particular institution names). Where the text is incomprehensible, the word as I parsed it follows in square rackets [brackets].
I think that it will great it's kind of like saying like Internet would have solved all of the world problems I agree that it no it's exactly saying that the Internet failed and it failed because all it did was give people a bunch of access without in any way providing any kind of tools to appreciate what they have access to are you just recording this now I am trying to misunderstands Dimitri though a lot yeah I'm using Microsoft Word but it's it really misunderstands you like heavily speech goes woman it's the same way turn it turn it turn well that's what I mean I think it's great it's kind of like saying the Internet would have solved all the world have an embarrassing woman woman that's what it says that's what it understood anyway it'll have me saying this as well I thought you were just maybe recording your recording it and doing no I'm I'm doing text to speech that's all I'm doing recording it but what do you mean like you're part of this project but also real quick I do wanna say […]
Oh no [no, not] invalid or anything I appreciate this little ender let's continue do you mind that I'm recording no I think it was no I mean I realized what you were doing I was just confirming no i don't mind at all I think it's helpful but I wanna hear what you I mean you're part of this project so I'd like to hear what you have to say sucks it's closed you have to pay to publish nature yeah well it's not your money it's grant money it's it's taxes yeah but it's still it's still ridiculous exactly and then it's tax money and then it's closed so like it's the notion kind of like everybody agrees with this kind of like yeah I see it this way as well but the notion that it's not reality bothers me because it's not reality dreaming about these next steps cause the thing that I was trying to explain I agree with what you're saying and it's nice to dream of like of further away perfect world but if we ground ourselves for a moment just just just the control I don't think the argument there I wonder to what extent the arguments need to be better developed or just these people are just changing like it's not like I need to develop a better argument you can also usually I feel metaphorically it's you can make things like it's like it's like big oil like no they're there they're established their prestigious prestige is important when articles read you give in to it it's the system it's how it is it's how how has been changed his heart plenty of open Jones they're opening and beginning to slowly be as popular or like or for some scientists at least like on so like ideological grounds only published in open open journals like from this direction things are slowly changing like Eli [OA] has done amazing things and it's at the top like at least not but it's like it it has good stuff but it's not nature but it's not nature it's not the Holy Grail like like the royalty the king and I don't think it's I and I don't think with sadness that's gonna change within the next 50 years I think will change in the next 50 years OK I don't like big oil I prefer baby or yeah exactly can we make sure that goes in the transcript I don't like big oil I like baby oil squeeze the babies pretty hard though to get their oil out can be the epigraph except the part about squeezing bring the babies drive philosophy of education by Ryan I gotta twist them in the right shape […]
I think we kind of covered it I think we said what needs to be said we all agreed it was phenomenal when I wasn't recording it I started recording it it kind of broke it but I thought at the very beginning you were like trying to write down steno typing but I'm very very slow I'm not a good typist we're fast talkers yeah it's really hard to keep up well I have special keyboards you can be a faster typist probably do it by syllable which is cool and you press multiple keys out of time there's a writing style as well that I tried to learn at some point where you just either you can write this sensually with like there is a scientifically optimized handwriting where you write down notes like I like I say like a very and it's a bunch of like squiggles that essentially do vowels like that essentially do like syllables I think I was watching something about demography and they might have covered this type of shorthand I think I tried to learn as 15 year old and I put three months into it so to put 2/2
To summarize your concern it's look just solving the control issue would be so great and we can do it and and quote UN quote UN quote UN quote and quote UN quote we all agree in it apparently nothing to do with education so yeah I think so but your idea is like the control solving the control issue is at least in some sense an important prerequisite to solving the let me call it the significance issue which is making the significance of the data as apparent as possible yes yeah sure I think that's just right I think that's right and I think the thing to say is there are already people who are really focused on solving the control issue there already people who are proselytizing yeah to solve the control issue that people who thought very seriously about I mean I guess moral and technical challenges to solving the control issue so given that there's already some thought that's been done to that it's worthwhile to think to what extent does solving the control issue really achieve the aim that we have yeah the goal the more global aim and to what extent do we need to go further than solving the control issue to really achieve that globally and as a side note it was sexy for me because again I wanted to try to figure out a way to make the experts like give a model of expertise that is not anti democratic it's just so hard in a human level sure but hard things are worth trying to solve OK to develop on this Dimitri you said something that was compelling about how if you had the choice between librarians without libraries or libraries without librarians there's nothing or libraries without librarians it's like obviously I'll take libraries every time I walked into the library I knew what I needed and I went and I got it there was someone who was saying this morning or not this morning but yesterday and I listened to it this morning that in a world where date where data is open we all become librarians and that feels like feels like related to this issue like I don't know just just somehow the disinterest of of whatever set of information for a user is like making you an essential part of the system so in a way that it doesn't doesn't feel good terribly innocent not only isn't friendly but but it's actually office kotori [obfuscatory] if that's a word I don't think it makes you sensually part of the system but voluntarily I wanna add to that like there are communities like this the dudes list that like not like yeah GitHub GitHub exists and it's voluntary and they're beautiful community projects I briefly wanted to for example where you just have committed experts who are there to help amateurs I don't yeah I but I think it's beautiful that if a person wants to become a librarian they can but it's alright that if a person shows up and there isn't a librarian waiting there holding their hand out I think this is a role that's alright yes I think you underestimate how how much skill you already have true because you're so used to you're having that skill yeah I think it might be and I think this is the case for me as well but I think that it's easy to overlook how dead a library would be to someone who has no skill with respect to accessing the information in it imagine we had a lunch that grew up reading books that gave him romantic interest and it's I feel like to me walking through an abandoned library sounds amazing but I think too many people libraries no no no even as a child who doesn't even just like this pure knowledge pure data you will make mistakes that's alright but you will still be able to learn from it and and and and yes it opens it up for malicious use it opens it up for malicious use because every tool I think every tool is neutral in the hands of humanity and at the end and this is my like critique of your like the expertise thing you're talking about 'cause we're trying to solve a very human problem and your solution sounds like theoretically beautiful but at the end I think it's still like maybe maybe it's a dark it's it's a dark interpretation of humanity but like in stubbles I feel into the same thing I don't think it's theoretically possible to have experts the way you describe him do this thing I don't know why you think it's a theoretical impossibility that we're talking about a theoretical concept wait but it sounded like you were saying there are some practical problems not theoretical problems and now you're saying it's a theoretical problem but here let me try to extend I also I want to give back I wanna have a little forward I'll forget what I wanna say I want you to briefly say I wanna give back in the capacity that even though like so essentially like complaining of the old world still exists bring in the new roles like but it is coming and it is there and everything that you're discussing and thinking about is important because in this parallel open world that's developing that maybe hasn't fully overtaken like what exists like this is exactly what needs to be discussed so I feel there imagine you had a curious individual who had no knowledge about the Dewey decimal system but there is a library the library that had a billion volumes yeah that person would not be able to exploit that library right sure OK but if you just recognize that then you see a problem OK I'm interested in right that doesn't mean it's the only problem yes that doesn't mean it's the be all and end all problem yes but I think if you can recognize that then you see the issue that I haven't [have a] counterpoint OK people could like just Google stuff and watch YouTube tutorial on like basic analysis to like you know they see the data they want to analyze but instead of blindly going to it they just know how to Google […]
yeah I feel this is not I don't think this is like and I'm not saying this is like it's like I'm an expert at Googling I'm pretty good at it I'm not saying this like as a scientist I'm saying this is like having observed with my little brother or plenty of people who are not scientists if they have an interest and they wanna do something right if they just have this like ethical desire they're like the the ability to develop those skills or to get some sort of a guidance already on YouTube or whatever like you know it exists they can find it if if they want if they wanna like if they have the I guess the meta knowledge so I haven't I have something to say in in I think what you just said belies a deep agreement between us is that skillfulness is necessary where I think the deep disagreement between us is coming in is you seem to assume something that I don't assume maybe I assume something different the problem isn't the assumption I'm just trying to tease out the difference and the difference that I see is you think the set of skills that from which one can bootstrap is quite minimal and it's something that could be it's something that many people could naturally develop yes and I am not beginning with that assumption and I think my work with I think that we are making that assumption I think is an empirical one not [a priori] one and I think that in my experience the way that I'm thinking about it that is that even the base set of skills from which one could bootstrap are not as widespread as you think sure and when I think about working with students at 🏫 or what I specially think about working with students at the 🏫 which I worked at for a little bit where it's only associates degrees I think what I see is yes there are a few very excellent specimens that were able to bootstrap themselves or were able to exploit their informational landscape including the existence of professors in a way that allowed them to become quite adroit at these types of things but I find that a majority of the students that I noticed didn't and couldn't and to the extent I think that they want yes if you if you care about again sorry to get so dark but if you care about the democratization if one cares about the democratization of data then yeah it's kind of it's kind of tragic that even though they might have the curiosity they don't have the skill set so everybody bootstrapped themselves up from even more basic skill set like for instance knowing how to Google I mean as someone who works with undergraduates let me tell you they're ship but at the end so so if we go back then so I wanted to if anything like give back and and kind of say like like I suddenly see a different interpretation of the image you kind of saying and this is how you see it as it is it already kind of exists in the world today and you say no that's not what I'm talking about that's not enough I mean like what I said so going back to that at this point you keep that in mind so next i'll still think you're just like collection of the stories of like 🤓's life and the lives of me […]
So no can we begin like this can we begin this but how right but how that is the question but how did you say you you can Oh no I was just saying that I could stop the recording sorry I OK yeah so sorry now you add we begin the subjects like you've sold me on these things you're talking about OK what do we do OK great so let's think about it from the perspective of category and we can situate that pedagogy in many different arenas here's a useful arena that were probably fairly in touch with let's think about it pedagogy for undergraduates OK so I'm very interested in this because I'm a undergraduate professor obviously and I think there is a way at least with philosophy that you could you could if you wanted to say here's a bunch of concepts memorize the concepts here's a bunch of theories memorize the theories here's a paper tell me and basically tell me what I basically told you but in your own words and that's the and that's the metric for success that's one style of teaching yeah and that's a very top down you could call it anti democratic you could call it authoritarian way of teaching there's a a a model and that there's a model of what you should look like student and that is me look like me yeah look like anything else you get less than add [A] yeah OK it's a great model of the me is really great I actually think that false OK but there's I agree I agree with you I agree with you that it is false but I will add that there is a dose of truth to it there's there's I believe it's so much that exactly exactly it's important for me to mention that every now and then it's just important for me to mention now and then that like in certain occasions when I mentioned that there is a dose of truth to it […]
life in Europe was great because in Europe you get paid slightly less than you get paid in the states with a stipend but there at least in Germany you didn't really have an opportunity to earn more by teaching which is pretty big thing as far as I understand here to earn money by teaching however yeah because the rent that I paid was stronger €50 per month wow that is yeah what was the size of it was really nice i mean it wasn't this level nice but it was sort of like i mean like to like i would be like well i guess i'm gonna go get a PHD in bremen because it's worth it just for the chicken so this one OK this apartment would be just finishing up you should go live in Europe because in the states rent prices are nuts and that one guy who runs in Maine and that's his only campaign thing the rent prices are crazy and housing in like over on this end of the world is weird he's right I don't know I don't know like like I don't know exactly Barcelona had a huge problem with Airbnb in price trading up through the air and becoming almost as expensive as I don't know like not SF even but like getting to those levels or like where you work with like and then they like sentence agenda ton of things it all back down where it's back down to sort of like the notion to any international person at least from like Europe that I've met that over the the notion person yeah at least from Europe I think good way to put it I think in the states at least towards the beginning of your career student whatever the notion that you're gonna pay about half or more of your salary just to rent an apartment is absurd it's a scene yeah I wonder how I still don't understand why or how it's so different I very much lucked out my first apartment in New York cost me $500 a month I remember those days so tense well it wasn't a whole apartment one room and yeah no I know it was like so so cheap yeah so so the equivalent of God was 250 euro yeah but I couldn't I don't think I knew anyone else in New York who was paying as little as I was anyway so they pulled it out of circle 50 euros in Bremen but today that's the crazy thing
so if we think about it from a pedagogy perspective you could have this way of teaching philosophy where like the model I just said yeah there's this whole this whole other way where it's like I'm gonna give you a bunch of skills yes and then what I want to see you do is use those skills in a way where you get to actualize your interests. And I think those to be very different can skills not be taught in a drastic tyrannical manner no I think skills could probably be taught in a tyrannical just drop because I went from one argument to slightly another one and I wanna like draw this distinction like trying to understand yeah I guess it would be interesting I would have to try to I would I would have to try to think that out more my temptation would be that the more a skill has if you want free thinkers then kind of mad now you gotta teach him you know here's another question if what you want to think of if what you want to teach is a way of thinking why do you need useful accessible data can't you use stuff that's been around for 1000 years and keep it at that I mean yeah so this was just supposed to be a way of trying to give some kind of concreteness to the suggestion because I know that that's what Dimitri was after kind of yeah now I know now not that I'm necessarily saying that this is the only project I was trying to use two different ways you could approach teaching philosophy as exemplars between two different styles of approaching expertise and teaching as such where one and and and and and then with those exemplars out there we can start thinking about applying that to how it expert could be used or engaged with data where does the expert come from where does the expert come from and why does the expert do this so again I'm very tempted to give an answer that you're not going to like which is those are just questions at a distinct level of inquiry oh those are the OK how do you I don't mean to be hoping but like like happened then you gotta give me something practical something like this is the first step that we can do to make this reality it can't be purely imaginary oh OK sure OK OK OK gotcha gotcha gotcha
yeah first step for for open repositories of data you commit to hiring one or more experts with respect to searching through the data so that could be like a librarian position you could hire people who are sort of acting as maybe statisticians that you can just ask questions too if you want to so like there's a way you could make so in this hypothetical real world where you do make checks and balances who do you cuts to replace with this new position well that now I think you're asking me to to [too] concrete of a question who do I have to cut like that's just sure OK just raise the taxes then well I think you're just saying well that'll cost money and I'm just gonna go well it does though it does no but I'll just say yes where else does the motivation come from OK so one of the questions like that that I was asking about is like potentially you would have like I I was looking for an answer that maybe like somebody who's done a lot of development oleinik sort of given which I'm not familiar with is it like you know 'cause I think like 'cause there are beautiful like if I think about it from their perspective of what has been achieved in like these open democratic collaborations and they think about [Linux] or like just like the stuff that happens on GitHub it exists and it could be potentially like just like maybe just can happen like that the Reddit of data but I think it could be that like just a channel that can exist that like has some experts but wishing that all data has this is also like still to me feels like out of out of reach yeah but almost almost no matter what unless you're willing to answer questions like who do you cut or are you willing to raise taxes would continue to exist basically is what I observe even if it's not something that's institutionalized it's something that's institutionalized negatively in that you don't train people to use whatever it is you just leave it open to the point where if you have enough to know how you can go and find whatever you're looking for but yeah anyway yeah I feel like that's what it is the skill we're trying to fight against yeah in a way so and also like so anti meritocracy no sorry just sorry to toss out things so obviously I think that that gets things so obviously wrong my oldest I'm almost stuck at how to respond to it because please do please do because I'm being well because like I'm not saying someone I'm not saying don't help the meritas and I'm saying let's give people more skills and I don't understand why I agree OK listened and also so yeah if I let's say we were talking but then let's say we were hold on hold on let's say we were talking 20 years ago and I said I think a good goal would be all data is not held behind paywalls and you could then have been like well how are we gonna do it who we gonna pay and those are all really important questions but that doesn't undercut the value of aiming for that goal right OK but I don't see how you need to pace OK so maybe what we need is for a lot of critical editors to volunteer to shepherd people into new relationships with datasets yeah and I also think like with public data that's actually produced by state governments you could actually say OK one of the things in the state budget is gonna be like a curator of the data or maybe not a curator but like a reference source that people who are interested in using the data can send emails to you say well how will we afford it libraries exist we already pay people to do this job we're just saying let's the number of people that we wanna give actually I think I have an insight to maybe wine [I'm] biased against this as a scientist who's an expert who can provide such guidance on maybe datasets academia is a place where most scientists quit and become data scientists and earn money because they're already stretched so thin and they do so many things and they review articles if they have like a lot of preference they will only review articles for open journals and only publish and open journals but the experts are stretched so thin and get paid very little money and usually burnout and if we don't have something more pragmatic than this kind of like it's it's it's like it's a bigger problem academia is not a place where people want to be there's no like there's no there's no source to like influence people for more people to become experts essentially or like to stay experts to stay this sort of thing like that you're describing so like but there's less you find unless unless we're now talking about oh more like there should be more money spent until this direction I agree I agree then 100% yes let us pay all teachers double let us like have more money in sciences so like OK so there aren't one thing to alleviate the problem you're talking about is just more tenure track positions that's expensive yeah but another way we could do it is just opening up more positions of the sort that I'm suggesting maybe that wouldn't be paid as much as a tenured professor unfortunate but it would give people who are well healed in academia job opportunities that would afford them greater job security maybe it's like a email
No I think I'm still trickle down economics like well you're expecting people to do free service which is going to accomplish this goal without having immunization that specifically related to carrying should be paid more to be teachers teachers people to be teachers definitely so don't become teachers but no I'm I'm actually but I think what you again are under appreciated about is that the three of us did really well in school and so school was a good environment for us to gain the skills yes but school is not [an] equally good environment for every possible learning yes let's make universities free like no but that's not but that again you're thinking about costs you're not thinking about like the way [that school] happens which is independent of the cost right even in school were free if it still involves that system if it is if it's still involved 30 people sitting in a classroom having a teacher talk at you yes that's only going to be good for so many students right even if it's the best teacher that's a different OK yeah no it's not different because I agree I agree with you on that agree with you it speaks to that point and I talk about a different thing and we both agree and our points right I think I think it's important because I think what you're saying does solve some of the problems but there's it doesn't solve all of the problem and I think the thing that I'm worried about your system would do is it would accelerate and asymmetry between the type of students that can do well in the highly regimented education process we already had just paying teachers more it's not gonna change that yes right it just means that you have a better teacher talking at you I am I am curious how do you feel about talking about in this world of like Europe where you have as a person I think officially eight years of free like bachelor level or any kind of education and by free I mean they have to pay like €300 a year no they complain about it very loudly because they're there and they stay students for eight years pursuing whatever skills they need and they want to find and then they have them they pursued correctly and many don't and many just go like I want to make like maybe go how do I make most money like that that's what sorry sorry to get mixing it into it but I feel it's like I don't I don't I we need more experts in what world do we want this experts to do but that's where we're disagreeing yes we're not disagreeing about the availability we're not disagreeing about should there be more outside rather we agree there so we agree that there needs to be more experts the question is what are these experts did rather have just better teachers and better schools even if they are the way right now even if it's every school in the states was the way like like if you compare sort of like schooling the states is absurd with the way that they get paid by like the local regions right every school in the states was akin to a school exactly as it is right now in a very preppy very posh like gulf and jans  neighborhood like 75% there I guess is the statement I'm saying nice you should probably put one of those away maybe not 75 no not right now thank you though but do you see what I mean no yeah I like I said I don't think I don't think I said I I hope I was clear about this I am sympathetic to your your approach I think it would solve some of the issues I just don't think it would solve all of the issue and I don't and I think it would I think it might risk that the people who are already struggling because of the format to go back to old word that from today from an old word of the day because the format of education already is certainly yeah I already told you I agree with that I don't I'm not actually calling for more tutorial teachers and I'm upset about now so now pulling from your pragmatism OK I think it's an easier sell to say let's get some data carriers pay them 50K then let's triple the salary of teachers oh I love that yes from that perspective I think I would be much I'd be much easier for me to do it I think
I do think though it would be much easier for me to get a government official to say like just just $100,000 a $150,000 we could have three data curators no no for specific region right like for like even one is going to be able to do some work no I meant like it like I was trying to get someone in New York City a lot of money you can have 20 people who just Google [shit] real good wait what do you mean we're paying the 20 people to Google 🏫 really yeah they're just really good Googlers they have this very basic set of skills and them together they can guide somebody to learn so they're paid interns sure yeah just like like it's a temporary job like college students do it like yeah sure yeah the way it is right now but slightly better but it's exploitive in the direction that I met that we are advocates make some undergrads do it but you're still I feel like you're been buying in but I feel like they're buying into the police paradise and nothing needs to change hear that this is the best all possible yeah yeah you're being so candid that was that was a that was a bad Voltaire joke damn I wish I feel I should get that done but I don't I'm sorry [Candide] was down alright it's never mind I guess it is it is word play but it's it's because Kandi [Candide] thought we lived in the best of all possible worlds just candy [Candide] you believe it I mean it's yeah that's that's that's I like that quote that's cool I don't know if I believe it but I have to tell you shouldn't because both terrorists it's it's a send up of that style of thinking right like but I I mean I am for change but but I asked the question how and we got to somehow and how inevitably like and then we just disagree and then you say like well well we'll make it happen let's say the house all and then I tell you like if the house all let's solve a different one first and you go OK well unless you're not the conclusion of our of our argument let's say let's say I'm talking to the New York State let's say I'm talking to the New York Department of Health which puts out public data about breakthrough cases of COVID or COVID cases as organized by vaccine vaccine status and age right this is the laser is enough experts who have analyze that data I don't think there are any experts who [whose] job is to help people who aren't experts understand the data you keep see you think the openness is for other scientists but there's so many articles that have been written like with like all the interpretations and all the opinions I don't understand like the datasets the way they happen in the way they've been analyzed if a person doesn't have the skills to analyze the data set themselves and then they need an expert to do it for them that the experts have already done it and provided all the opinions and they're already there pick the one you want because you aren't because you aren't teaching you aren't teaching people you're just you're pouring knowledge into their ear which is the worst way but if they're not experts enough to do it themselves I don't understand another way then if they're if they have a question and they want an answer here's the answer and you say no if they have a question and they need to then figure out themselves how to do it and have the skills to do it and here's a magical person who magically gives us the skills to do it exactly their way to find their answer something seems let me give you a concrete example in the new in the numbers that GB releases every two weeks I think it's a fortnightly release of COVID numbers they breakdown cases by vaccination status and then they normalize the number by putting it in terms of every 100,000 people OK but the normalized number isn't normalized [to 100,000] people by vaccine status it's just normalized to 100,000 people so people who don't know anything about how data is processed yeah look at that and say look the case rate for people who have vaccines is four times higher than the case rate for people who don't have vaccines and they misunderstand and think because it's being poor 100,000 people it's already broke down by I'm gonna go find a guide to help me out to understand this data and they Google it like just but there isn't that even they can't even do that they somehow they magically landed and found they regional the true source of data as opposed to being bombarded with all of these opinions that we already are bombarded make any direction you want somehow they found the true data and at this point you want there to a
The mistake that you're making is you think again knowledge can just be poured into someone's ear as opposed to knowledge getting hold on hold on hold on as opposed to knowledge being something that's achieved when you work through the questions yourself yes and and and I think you're saying but it's all there but it's not all there to be worked through by the person who's trying to understand it right now the process like let's say this British thing so we can go they can say like oh this thing and like it makes me freak out I don't want vaccines because four people and then a little like paper clip comes up from the right and says you sound confused would you like to speak to one of our data analysts yeah they'll tell you how to understand the state of properly what it will say is you can ask them questions from your perspective and then the data analyst is engaging with them as the person is actively trying to themselves engage with these status yes and that's very different than just having an answer dead and pasted on the web page feel that difference but I think they're not I I agree that they're different OK I also think they're not that different I think they're super duper different as a pedagogue OK interesting yeah I think there's a hole for some questions for some questions for some like at least in sciences and hard sciences and hard sciences and math were things like truth exist well if you're talking about statistics when things like truth exists there is no difference no because one gives the person knowledge and the other person who gives them a mere fact yes but if you're teaching somebody the skills of like how to understand the pure math or like this at least at least in this example of the COVID numbers yeah at the end of the day like the guide to the person is here's how statistics works I don't see any other way to like to guide them through it in a way that is more democratic they don't have to know all of our statistics works yeah here's how fast in this example word yeah subject librarian still but it's still like just are very underused resource because people don't understand how to ask for help yeah from person in that position this is what I was saying yeah that seems seems like one of the one of the worst parts of it is that how how would they make themselves useful I don't I don't sorry go ahead what is the subject library actually I don't know seriously is that mean this is something I was referring to before but yeah Oh no I mean I don't know subject librarians are like I work at a library and I'm a subject librarian for American studies so if you're taking a class in American studies and you're writing a research paper and you want to know how to begin your long essay about labor movements or something you could ask me where to start and libraries have these people yeah I subjects like big libraries yes even university libraries. 🏫 had subject librarians and I used the subject librarian when I was at it was excruciating 'cause they did not use a computer so watching them yeah so they're like behind technology now and don't know how to operate but they're very good at using like interlibrary loan for example sometimes or I don't know what else they're good at but they might also be like oh here's they might they feel like subject librarians also no good sources so you're interested in the late movement X 1927 whatever from bias from like and like the form of bias OK OK I'll stop for biases aren't bad biases biases are biases in and of themselves I think are normatively neutral it depends on what it's biased towards or against OK this is a more general way to use the notion of bias it's like I can be biased towards statistical analysis as opposed to anecdote that's the type of bias that I have that's not a bad thing that's not the bias in the way that people use it in common parlance when you talk about in common parlance people think oh bias means you have a conclusion and you're going to fit the data to your conclusion but there's another way that biases come about whenever you're educating someone which is to incline someone towards a particular manner or way of going about something and that's not a bad thing right yeah but that's not what I meant by it as well so to me today I have a question for you about the so why couldn't I say Sam a person that doesn't know anything and I'm overwhelmed by my experience reading the Internet is everything that I encounter when I'm like trying to read Twitter or whatever it is is that a form of data set is my failure to navigate that similar to the failure of a non expert navigate data give us as a person who doesn't use Twitter or not Twitter but anything like you're talking about like Googling badly or something like that we're not understanding how Wikipedia can be helpful but what it's limitations are yeah right so Wikipedia I always tell myself it's a great place to start but it's never the place to end right or like sometimes it's more than enough sometimes church  sometimes an example I might have is I really like suggesting to my students that they use the Stanford encyclopedia of philosophy but the Stanford encyclopedia of philosophy is written by professors at philosophy often four [for] advanced undergraduates graduate students and other professors yes it's often like an encyclopedic entry on a particular issue which I have just realized first hand is very hard for students to navigate if they don't already know a bit about philosophy right and having someone so I guess here's a major maybe a major disagreement that we're having that hasn't fully been brought to the floor is everything so is is that interaction yeah is it is it is it's very important feedback is very important to successful education yes it's very important to successful understanding yes and one thing that these types of positions that I [I'm] advocating for would do is allow for more feedback for more whereas what you're suggesting is that people can get this feedback if they're just adroit enough with Google etc and I'm saying that people who are that adroit aren't really the targets of our concern for this type of issue those people are already set but there's I would think that there are small minority of people is that not true I know it's true it's true and I agree but I still don't see what the answer is and it's kind of the question that Allison was asking like like So what if I'm one of these people who's not enough yeah what was the end like So what do I do like how does one get past this yeah basically I don't like how does one get past this and become an expert who can do this themselves or how does one yeah let me let me finish sorry let me finish sorry Allison asked me a question and then you talked for like 5 minutes so that is like so first there is an interesting question like would you rather at this point in this hypothetical like get the skills to be able to do this on your own at any point or do you have a specific question where you need to like just the bare minimum to have like this answer like is it is it is it you failing to rule something once and it's very important or is it like I just want to be able to like slightly Google all the time better in this weird googly metaphor alright in this weird googly meta both of them are good directions to pursue but like I don't have a direct answer and I need to like think about it like somehow my brain it's that my my poor practice of Googling has led me to a place where I believe something that is not the truth OK basically the misinformation question driving back into misinformation question right how do I wish that schools they taught people more and leaned into the dialectic method meaning meaning kind of like whenever you believe anything trying to read the opposite side and like and at least that at least that's I think that would be interesting OK so then the question yeah how can you like identify the opposite purposefully purposefully recognize that any point in time you might be biased and try to confirm with people who disagree with you and think about it together isn't that something that the type of person I'm advocating that we institute in data sets etc can provide because they can be doing let me be the dialectic provided dialectic coordinator the dialectic coordinator yeah yes as a philosopher I think that that's something that's question here is a guy who asked completely different bias from you now have you talked to each other they just have to skillful like I don't like you you might ask me like for instance like this is something I strive to do in my classes is to never my students two sure about what the answer is on the basis of on the basis of my of my thinking it's the case OK so like I like the higher order theory of consciousness I'm teaching the consciousness course right now but I didn't I've been I've I've tried to make it so that students don't just think the higher order theory of consciousness is right because Ryan told me it's right or because I know Ryan believes that that's the right theory I do a lot of work to try in the readings I select in the way that I present the issues to them in the order that I present the issues to them to make it so that not that they left confused but they are left in the landscape with the skills to explore that landscape and find a path of their own in that landscape So what do you do with the ones that show up but they're not at all interested in the classes though they're just like to get credits but put in the bare minimum effort so I would say that so let me first say before I answer that question I think that that class of people is not the main target when we think about open data we should first concern ourselves with a group of people who are at least interested enough to try to access the open data but don't have the skill set to see what the data could be saying is interesting because this is further like discredit like like slowly we're drawing some lines and it's like democratic like for everyone versus kind of like like alright let's target these people because prior I was gonna say like yeah these people exist it's me and it's you and you said no I meant a bigger chunk and I say what about those people and I would say well not them like I mean like this chunk over here at the very least I'm just not trying to address the issue of getting to motivate people who aren't motivated I'm interested in the group people who are motivated but not skillful OK but I think that you're right that the unmotivated are another group of people that we should be concerned with if our overall goal is to increase the democratization of data and its analysis I think you're entirely right that that that that set of people who are just disengaged is a huge problem a huge problem it's bigger but it's but it's not the target of the problem that I'm just trying to deal with right now and I don't say that I don't say that to be flippant continuously 15 targets no no no no I think you're trying to explore the issues and like that and you guys trying to say that I think too insert sometimes it's totally acceptable to say that's important but it's not my project OK I think sometimes you guys have to say that like you know someone might say I'm really interested in exploring feature detection in V1 and someone else might say yeah but we don't know anything about consciousness and isn't that important to understand the overall perceptual experience of people and then someone might reasonably respond yes but that's just not my problem like which isn't to say that isn't a problem it's just to say I have a particular problem on targeting and I'm trying and I think that that problem is a big enough problem enough to be worth targeting that doesn't mean other problems aren't worth targeting and so it's OK for me to say that's outside of my ambit and and it's not too avoid criticism it's just to say like yeah there are lots of things that need to be done can we do so I'm confused now back kind of like so at some point we started touching you in a different direction that was the direction was kind of saying like let's say so here is like various expertise that exists out there as it is right now that is iaccessible to pretty much anybody who's willing to send this want to access it yes it's there to some degree yeah that point you said no not everybody we're not everyone can Google doesn't mean no you know not everyone can type something into a search bar it means a lot of things like not everyone knows how to evaluate different things that show up on Google I'm just thinking you can really begin to kind of like it just feels to me there's so many experts in there kind of like if you're interested in something and indeed it sometimes sometimes it is hard to go and find the right forum and read it does not always get you the best answers understatement OK here's another but but like you can go and find an expert and if you have a good question for an expert they'll answer it if you have a stupid question for an expert they probably won't let stupid and that is and that is a funny being kind of like where we're kind of like maybe there should be like answers for stupid questions but but I understand if we have to cut something like out from the funding we maybe not I don't know what I'm getting but I was going to say is that even if it's the case that we live in the best of all possible worlds and all of this information is as as you're kind of saying it's it's open and available yes to a degree where you can basically find information on anything that you want to learn anything or I mean pretty much to to some level that feels like great start how are you going to make and infrastructure where that's going to be even remotely sustainable where you can call it like I don't know or you can recognize it as being like the the life of the mind or university life as people have become accustomed to living at I mean isn't the open circulation of knowledge going to be a real problem for people who want to make their living as experts in the next generation or two maybe it's unfair to keep jumping back to this or no jump back to like sort of like in the sciences when the heart is free you are constantly advancing and so it feels like they're always going to be producing new forms of expertise that will require a person to be advancing your skill set and just answering slightly different questions that do usually follow at least for some period of time some like direction so there is advance and then you find out this was the wrong direction there it goes 20 years of my life picking you up but yeah question sorry sorry that was a really diffuse question I guess
I don't know the question is how do you how do you build an infrastructure where it's sustainable to have this much open information question that I was kind of like getting in before so I answer this with sadly taxes and kind of like and or saying yes we need more jobs like this we need to like direct more to that people no but in but in the end and it's and when I go into that direction I I still feel kind of like there are bigger things they're bigger fires to put out and I see it on feasible but if this in the hypothetical if you wanted to get this done this is how it's done and sadly I feel it's done by yeah I think making either having this Ryan put it hiring more people to have some this precise hypothetical perfect job that guides people through data analysis or like makes education not absurd but like free for all to the level voluntary were then the problem becomes apathy potentially like sort of like the amount of traders when they become data scientists you feel like people are traitors when they become data scientists So what does that mean who are they working for I mean fake on average usually folks give up on some mission and some interest in being purely an expert in the field and it is a weird and a posh thing and like wants to advance the field and it's also there so happy to answer a question if somebody at some point saw the title of some of my paper and went like hey I'll write him an email I'm there not yet a famous professor I'm not overwhelmed happy more than happy but the questions don't come so I I'm rambling and I'm trying I'm the question again add number list
Yeah go right so I think we begin with the premise that we want to increased democratization of data and its analysis if you don't agree with that premise you're just on a different boat that's the first thing I agree with the premise cool alright second two increase the democratization of data its availability and its analysis you both need to make it more available in a kind of root sense that is just there's gotta be more data sets they gotta not be behind the paywalls if it's funded by taxes and convenient as to be open something as simple as that yeah but that's a problematic thing we could just say two increase access things shouldn't be behind paywalls you might wanna put restrictions on that but that would just that's that's functioning as yeah that's functioning as one of the ways of democratizing more yeah the second way of democratizing remember we wanted to democratize a few things one was access to data the other was the analysis of data but I might put that less technically by just saying I want more people to understand it I want more people to be able to use it to make sense of things where make sense of things is a success term it's not just merely the relative like people can think about data however they want rather they are able to use that data in ways that are justifiable but still their own that seems like a fair way to think about still there so it isn't merely listening to an expert you can if you want to but even if you come to agree with that expert because you've actually looked through the data and tried to understand it and your understanding of it dovetailed with the understanding the common understanding of it that means that it's still your own understanding it you've actually I mean as a philosopher as a philosopher I would say actually that's really what's necessary to understand something everything else is just belief in some facts but to understand something really involves going through it in your own in earnest and to be able to do that people need to have certain skills to understand something yeah you need to be an expert no I don't think you need to be an expert I certainly think the more experts I say slightly facetiously but I think like again sorry there there's like a big dose of truth to that how would you how like if you truly want to like that's the definition of the word experts to some degree like is it not no no no it expert I don't think so I think and understand I mean look I don't want to die on this hill so let's just say yes OK so to to but to me it is an important place yeah I'll just give it but I'll just give it to you because I think my let's let's let's let's have my argument works either way my argument works either way you're 100% right for the argument let's just say to understand something in earnest on your on not on your own that's not exactly right I know I said that before it should be something I mean I mean to say to be able to truly understand something you have to work through the ideas yourself that's probably better than on your own on your own has an unfortunate connotation of in a solitary manner which is what I yourself booklet guide I didn't say by yourself I said yourself yourself you need to work through it yourself that is not the same as by yourself apologize for bringing it back to like examples can you give me this like the best scenario of the sky in this case it would like with the with the COVID numbers in Britain sure so I am someone who is curious about the COVID numbers for whatever reason it could be because I was exposed to misinformation whatever that means and now I'm skeptical now I just I mostly don't know what this information means it's a word that I find incredibly vague and really obnoxious and problematic that's another word that's vague they're not just a problematic way it's the very word problematic but so I might be interested in COVID I might be interested in looking at COVID data because I was listening to Joe Rogan podcast and Carl whatever his name hood no not Karl Malone that's a basketball player somebody who's skeptical something Robert Robert Malone somebody here yes yeah yeah exactly perfect I'm not totally I'm not totally passive yes but I'm like OK I heard someone who has the title doctor say I don't know how to Google factcheck.com so but I read that I read OK so I Google it I Google Robert Malone Joe Rogan debunked and then I read all the debunking and I go I I don't understand there's these things that they say in the debunking that I just don't I just don't get they aren't intuitive they aren't obvious to me but they're really important for the argument that they're making and as much as I look those particular things are not explained in a way that make them intuitive to me seems very likely seems super duper likely how do I as someone who's engaged enough to look for publicly available information or publicly available data maybe the person on the Joe Rogan podcast just claimed people who are vaccinated are getting COVID at higher rates than people are that are unvaccinated and I go you know what I live in New York State I know that New York State publishes its COVID data fortnightly so I'm just going to look at the last few releases and it leads to the exact problem that I just told you before that I've literally seen on conspiracy theory message word these people these people are I understand the lead up I'm asking you So what is the optimal solution why I go so website instead of what happened what happens instead so I think even here's a very flat footed answer and it's flat footed and and and cheap which is just to say that I have to think about this more but this even this seems like it would start damn it even he has nothing don't don't don't just because they item yeah dad source neighborhood I'm sorry I got excited no no worries I can be passionate so so there's this data set you're looking at this data set and literally it's just like you went on like an Internet like time Warner's website or any of those websites where it's like a little thing in the corner that has a little bubble and after you've been on this site for five minutes it says do you have any questions would you like to be connected to one of our experts what is clippy I started describing clippy and you said no no I I like to play start did I yeah no but I didn't say I don't I don't think I said no to clipping introduction to clippy though is more compelling than yours well clippies is like a stupid program I'm thinking you're talking to a real human on the other end yeah yeah sure sure sure so even that yes which is an incredibly flat footed response to your question yes I think would do a lot of that would do a lot of the work maybe not in the best way maybe not in the most efficient way etc etc and that person would then be this perfect guy would not tell them the answer he would guide them towards it but you can imagine that if you'd loved Joe Rogan you would feel that it was completely typical that clippy was always suggested whenever you're reading this blah blah it's not gonna work for everyone of course but I don't think everyone who's convinced is dyed in the wool in their first steps it's the seatbelts actually help people from dying in car crash why I feel but in the end I still don't prohibit people from dying of alcohol wait wait wait a lot of people violated how is it like that yeah I don't see how it's like that and then and then it's not perfect and even if you were so yeah of course it's not popping up then yeah I mean if my goal were 100% then I'd always be a failure and I just always a failure for other reasons so but no I mean you know you don't let the don't don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good so sure OK that's beautiful actually I mean it's not my thing I said back I agree with that 100% it's one of the things my advisor tells me somewhat often no no I'm take back what I just said I'm gonna flip back and forth we were not talking about profession we're talking about reality and that's the problem you feel you were kind of going so what's the problem with the relatively relatively concrete example that I gave you yeah yeah yeah sure no no end in as much detail as you can no I mean that is a real question by the way please do explain to me what the no no I agree having the option having bubble is there I've seen the bubble on some websites usually you're talking to a bot yeah and that makes sense because you would do the job and who would pay money for that so again you talked to the bottom long enough and if you know the secret password you can just immediately talk to you person there are also people there agents in the at the end of the line to answer the questions about your financial needs and your bank yeah yeah OK so why is this not a way so there should be people like this just working information no they can have a bias but even having OK even even having a bias would still set up the people but they guide you as opposed to just telling you the answer and this is the point take some time this is the crucial point as they guide you to it when it's possible to guide you into it I do think there are times where someone is going to make such just I'm understanding and access or like misunderstanding a category that sometimes will just go right that's not what that means I want to continue but that's not always what they have a much better and much more fun continuation of the conversation let's continue our role playing I'm now the user you're clipping yeah sure OK cool that actually this is good I heard on Joe Rogan that this thing is like if I get the vaccine I'm four times as likely to get infected and this graph says it OK well you know that makes sense actually a number of people who I've talked to recently came here with a similar question so let's try to understand what the graph is so I take it that way you've noticed is that the number of people that are reported as getting it with the vaccine is four times the number of people that are reported getting it who haven't taken that vaccine is that why you think that well that's what the bar shows so that's that's what you that's why you think that this shows us I just wanna make sure I don't wanna get you I don't wanna get you wrong it's important to me that I understand your question give me the answer well it's it's wrong it it shows it over here and like so it's bad so one thing that's important to take into account when we look at data like this is what percent of the population each of these groups represent so while it's true exactly what you said I think you read the graph which is otherwise not always easy to read quite well yeah the people who have vaccines there are four times as many people who had vaccines that got COVID as people that didn't but the number of people that have gotten vaccines is five times as many people who don't have vaccines OK so if we think about it in terms of the number of people relative to their population size what the data seems to suggest is actually that as far as it goes just with COVID you are less likely to get COVID if you're vaccinated as opposed to unvaccinated and I have a helpful example if you'd like that was a really long paragraph the bars obviously show that it's four times greater yeah and you just said a lot of things that I I don't understand OK so look the bar is bigger like why isn't there like if it's different then why don't you just like put it on the so there yeah I think you're right that sometimes these graphs could probably just be designed better unfortunately the graphs aren't designed by people who are thinking about like people like you and me who are just trying to understand it they're often designed for other data scientists and that can make it hard here is something that I think is sometimes helpful when I'm trying to understand this graph imagine everyone but one person got the COVID vaccine I wanna stop this simulation on this one OK so essentially provides like a counselor who's willing to discuss this for a long and delegated time to great detail to great detail and it's a human person and they're gonna like truly discuss it for a long time and go back and forth but again like I feel like if it's a common enough question you think oh I don't think I don't think like like having having in fact like like and this was perhaps my own like very strong bias and my horrible ability to not role play but I feeling and this in this case in this example if there's this specific question that gets probably asked all the time huge thing and that's the only saying that all the counselors get to talk about sure and they have just like they have the same conversation over and over and over and over again yeah but they're not a bot their person yeah and they're doing it and this is I agree that this is better than just having like a fact that says like here's here's here's a big confusion yeah let us explain it yeah in this like well perfect paragraph that is made to be more understandable yeah yeah it's it's better to have I agree but […] I feel it's so much easier to just have fat [facts] but it doesn't work we we have proof of that it doesn't work it doesn't work for all the cases we wanted to work for we have proof of that so OK yeah I'm not saying wait hold on I'm not saying we should replace successful techniques with only this keep all the successful techniques and do this like God dam who's gonna do this that sounds like such sounds that sounds like like such a like a soul drenching job I don't know I had a lot of fun doing that right now alright but imagine doing this one other times more or less the same way per day yeah imagine you're a nurse that has to treat mostly the flu it doesn't mean it isn't a worthwhile thing that we've paid in erses to do this we need more data sources sure but I I but I I mean I I mean like it it's it's a weird it's a it's a kind of weird argument like there are lots of jobs that are repetitive but are still really important but if it's if this job requires a true expert I mean it depends on how true the expert needs to actual waste of an expert I disagree I think you're missing I think you miss I think you underestimate the value of expert communicators in the field someone with a bachelors degree or masters degree or even someone who has a PhD and didn't want to go to academia but like really likes talking about this stuff really likes teaching like think about all the adjunct lecturers that we currently pay peanuts they would be they would be totally […] great to do this job like no you know that one website that's advertised a lot Skillshare yeah I've never actually used it so so like this but free and also not driver but free I don't know and also but and also not like and also not like learn how to video edit but it's done more like I mean I would think that these would be deployed in a strategic way about really important issues that affect society first but that's like but that's like a particular way I'm thinking about doing it from the perspective of just the analysis and the normative claims I think when applied to the question of open data these are interesting and important questions to have and yeah I hope I've sucked some of the venom out of you it feels like I have it you feel really I'm actually very adamant of like water waste of experts I feel even even the ones that you name kind of like like I guess so it creates a job for all the bachelor students who like wanted to be let's go let's go let's go let's go with no let's go with let's go with my six let's go with my suggestion which is it's a bunch of adjunct professors OK and it's like an extra source of money sure that could be how it works or that could be how it works I drunk professors yeah I feel a whole group of people who are being underpaid for early many professors I know and I fear this future life look like they haven't slept when they look stretched so thin and their life is horrible and have all these responsibilities and things they're doing and articles they're reviewing for free and like got damn like alright let's have them do more what does an engineer professor do professor is just a professor that he's hired often to teach a class by class basis that doesn't have that isn't in tenure track that doesn't have any requirements that publish so pure lecturer just just just lecturing as opposed to research I mean a lot of adjunct professors are at least hoping to eventually get into a tenure track job so they are researching but it isn't like part of the job description oh so the reason OK so they're doing lectures and it gives them time to do their own research but they needn't that isn't part of the job description and many older adjunct professors have given up on the research because they don't think it will get them anywhere professionally anymore because then there's the adjunct trap trap which is if you've been an adjunct for too long you become essentially yeah both defacto it sounds really interesting to me the sun at least sounds like I forget that you're in stemware [STEM, where] in his idea of life I do apologize I do apologize no it just it is very strange coming from like the humanities in history a strange sort of like because like academia is quite different in different countries and it feels precisely like that it feels like I've right to Spain and I'm discovering oh what is it like to be a PhD student here and it's completely different and among other things like I do wanna say I'm curious I'm curious to what extent yeah this is just kind of like a humanities in United States problem or thing that exists that's an interesting question for sure I do think as a side note I do know I think it's one of one of the Canadian philosophy departments I can't remember which I was looking for so I do this cognitive science thing and I look for speakers to invite and I was looking for some speakers to invite and I run across this philosopher and her job title and she talks about it on her like university bio page is actually more focused on the teaching of philosophy still tenure track job then research and philosophy yeah so she's like the blah blah blah professor for public engagement with philosophy or something like that and so there is value to this type of way of thinking about what experts should do and I and I'm and I'm kind of surprised that you think I maybe I'm not surprised I think it's disappointing more experts that are pages to teach you know actually in that point yeah I agree and I don't think it's a waste of an expert I agree I think that's just more agile professors or more like but I'm I'm actually saying take the people who would otherwise be adjunct professors and employ them in this kind of role but then what happens to the courses that they were teaching they probably still exist because they're paid about $600 for a semester course no really so it's it's it's it's it's it's a little bit more than 3K for 🏫 it's 5K at no at 6K at 🏫 which is why I continue to teach him on clay [at 🏫] then 🏫 yeah and then why you in France it's like I like France because in France as far as actually if anything maybe split too strongly 'cause you can be either no you can still essentially kind of get to fix like a Little Mix you can do mostly research and teach just a little or if you love teaching you can just do teaching and hardly research sure and they hire strongly specifically in these two directions selecting the right people for either role and I think it's beautiful that's I think that's great too given that there are a bunch of people though who have PHD's yes and a lot of these people are not going to be hired into tenure track positions yes there is a body of people who my current proposal can exploit not in a bad way to fill positions like the ones I'm talking about so if your question is which people are we going to get to fill these jobs I just gave you an answer and if your question is how are we going to pay them my answer is we already pay them peanuts I actually think we should pay them more of course any any suggestion that I am going to put forward is going to involve either the requirement that someone volunteers or the requirement that someone gets paid I think that's probably a more universal problem than my current proposal so I think it's not worth I don't think it's to me it seems I don't think you're thinking about the health of our society I think you're thinking about the advancement of the field to the exclusion of the health of our society I don't see what's so drastical about like just giving people the answer I guess because giving people the answer doesn't work I don't know I don't know how you can look at the right you need the patience to somebody for two hours OK what happens in the end to all the people that like lose patients who came with an opinion and like who you like see all the words along alligated kind of like things and don't understand what you're talking about or just leave so I would think there's a couple of answers there redetermined bias yeah graph confirms it yeah and you like yeah if you're at least if what your message is as long as what you messaged they're out of there OK so there's a couple of answers I'm going to have for you it's not simple kind of like yeah OK so here are a few responses conversation one response is what you're asking for explanation one response one one response is suggested meant there are going to be people who are not ready to be moved sure no matter what sure and they might try to use the service yes and they might try to use the service to have their biases confirmed that isn't what will happen and that might mean they become more recalcitrant that might be they are just as recalcitrant as before that might be in their slightly lesser Council of Trent but they don't actually change their opinion yes that will exist so that will exist with any thing you try to do anything you try to do my second my second response is you're asking me in R&D question you're saying OK well what if people don't respond to the specific way that you just role played with me Ryan and I take that to be in R&D issue so if we're really committed to this way of employing people then one of the things I assume we'd also be committed to is being reflective about it building theory about it testing that theory out we might even call it something or something like that could be in person on the other line oh if you think why do you want it to be but here's what I would say is just sorry every other version but here's what I say realistic and it's just so much easier but here's what I say so I have a bot two problem and have about two but I would say be honest with the person about it maybe I'm layering over my exploit I'm laying I'm laying over my experiences with like what happens usually when I click this chat bubble and I find that very realistic like sort of you put the chat bubble you talked about for awhile if you insist and just the right way you might talk to you but remember my my goal here is society yeah it's to making a healthy society and and having people engaged with other people having people engage with other people I think achieves partially this goal and I think a bot would do a less good job achieving this goal I don't think there's no room for bot to play a role you could have it in your way I would think that if we did do it your way it shouldn't be you have to say the magic words to talk to a person we should allow someone to always adopt like in life like when when I when we rule the world rule 1/2 I don't wanna rule the world no no omeene has to we can work for a very difficult solution where no one rules it's just the easiest way that things have happened so far you say you're sorry you're such a troll yeah OK you don't have to apologize I'm just going to be stubbornly responding to you as if you're being as earnest as possible is that is that frustrating but I did that no no no no no I love it but I felt a little guilty how about we I haven't like a beautiful proposal what if it's not a chat bubble in this specific bubble I think there's a line fun but every kid learns as they go and it's kind of like if you wanna talk to your person and you can talk about whatever you want sure I think that would ultimately problematize the issue much worse because of course someone just like me on the other line is like I don't understand how tomato DNA works and you're like sorry that's not one of mine give a tomato guy on there's a bar at the beginning that goes like kind of like there's a there's a little section that goes tell us what woman talk about and you like you have to say just right and it sucks for international people or people with an accent 'cause they like can't see it but realistically like they need at least this step and then force you to you know that guy sure yeah I still think I like it I love it I love it I'm with you given that I wanna tie it to data I do wanna have the expert kind of type the specific data sets we're talking about but yeah like I even like I even think again I like going to the New York example because there's already in New York State website that is literally built to distribute poorly designed yeah sure OK fine yes I actually think there's a blur somewhere in the middle yeah but I think that's fine to accept I think it's fine to accept that there are certain issues that are more at least for the current period important for society and at the for those issues we should have you could call I mean I don't want to call them public intellectuals because public intellectuals already like unfortunately colored in terms of what it means more public intellectuals but yeah I think that's kind of what I'm advocating for but I'm advocating for it in light of some of the problems with open data private intellectual I mean if you really want to ask me more paid intellectuals yeah I'm pretty cool on however the split goes but I'm selfish if the split goes on me and none of them none of the other ones that's probably a bad thing but I'd like it yeah so this is I think just previous alaria intellectuals yes I'll be able to afford 10 peanuts this whole time